We may be screwed

DH: You mentioned Dark Age of Camelot in terms of how endgame was the big thing and the designers created systems so players could get there really fast. Then you said something very specific, "what if endgame isn't where you want to be?" What are some of the most important principles to you about switching people from the race to the finish line versus enjoying the actual run itself?

Damion Schubert: We really want to put in systems to encourage replay. The Legacy System, which we hope to get in, will hopefully be in that venue. I am not ready to talk about what exactly it is and how we do that, but we are really betting heavily on the level up game.

We are really betting heavily on the story aspects of the game, and we really want people to enjoy that journey, and to feel like that journey is interesting and exciting. We actually want to incentivize people to try the different classes so that they experience those other stories, and they play the game again. So that really put a lot of pressure on us to make sure that leveling up your second character and your third character is not grinding, and that it still feels like a fresh and interesting experience. We're less interested in doing a Dark Age of Camelot "hey bypass all the content" in order to get to max level to do the endgame content because of what we think is important about our game and is our unique selling point: we want you to try that content. Maybe there is a way in the future, but that isn't even a sparkle in our eye at this point.

I actually like this. If there is pvp throughout the game experience, like WAR, then there is no need to hit max level as fast as possible. Hell, maxing out in a week is just one of the reasons why AoC failed so hard. I remember talking to Genx once, he asked me where I was questing. I said Thunder River, and his response, "Where is that?"

It will be nice to enjoy the game, enjoy the story, pvp during it the entire experience, without having the preasure to hit max level. I've always believed that it should take 6 months to hit max. Make it mean something. Powerlevelers be damned.

Yea this should be good because I think world pvp is one of the best kind of pvp so if they dont instance everything then this will be cool I think. I never lvled up fast in AoC,WaR, or WoW when they first came out because I was always PvPing towns and players in the lower levels much more skill, planning and cordination involed than max lvl pvp where gear plays a pretty big part.

I don't want to rush through the game like I did with AoC. Like Sneaky said, I haven't really visit many places in AoC because I just powerleveled through it.

AoC was a different game though. Open world pvp required you to get to max asap so you won't get ganked by higher lvls. I don't think that's what SWTOR is going to be and I am fine with that. I want to enjoy the game and not get burned out after 2 months.

Here's the huge problem I see with that though.

I don't give a fuck about alts, or running through the story again and again. Them enticing me with a second or third storyline is cute, and a nice little side thing, but beyond that, I've never been a player of alts. I like to focus on one toon and be as badass on him as I possibly can.

So where does that leave me? Level him once and just sit around and piddle with their half assed endgame? Yes, world PvP is also my favorite line of PvP, but if BioWare's banking on their gamers releveling to get their replay value, I can see myself becoming bored, fast.

I like the idea of enjoying your time spent to max level, I don't like the idea that STORY is the goal of this game. Looks pretty clear that everything takes the bench to the main player, story.

The real question that needs to be asked.
"Does end-game content exist in SWTOR?"

We'd probably get: "Well um..... STORY! COMPANIONS! STORY!"

If end game doesn't exist, the story should keep people long enough for them to get it in.

I guess I'm in the minority here.

I read that quote and basically got "we want the journey (i.e. story) to be the game."

He asks "what if endgame isn't where you want to be?".

I'd ask "what if endgame IS where I want to be?"

As for enjoying pvp during the leveling process-- I'm not sold, unless zones are significantly level restricted. Otherwise, there's always some guy that's outleveled you, and is correspondingly at an advantage. Plus, in any game I've played, PvP is as balanced as it can be at max level. Different classes have different power curves, so there's always the threat of a given class having too much of an advantage at a given level.

The whole point to endgame pvp is that there's at least one even playing field (max level), and preferably more (balanced classes).

I just hope the entire story really is great, as long as pvp is up to par I will be happy, unlike AOC where I rushed through the game to get to 80 than hated the game for it lol

Lunt wrote:I just hope the entire story really is great, as long as pvp is up to par I will be happy, unlike AOC where I rushed through the game to get to 80 than hated the game for it lol

No doubt Bro

SneakyJes wrote:I actually like this. If there is pvp throughout the game experience, like WAR, then there is no need to hit max level as fast as possible. Hell, maxing out in a week is just one of the reasons why AoC failed so hard. I remember talking to Genx once, he asked me where I was questing. I said Thunder River, and his response, "Where is that?"

It will be nice to enjoy the game, enjoy the story, pvp during it the entire experience, without having the preasure to hit max level. I've always believed that it should take 6 months to hit max. Make it mean something. Powerlevelers be damned.

I am with Sneaky on this.

Sorry but if being a fast leveler/powerlever means blowing by all the leveling content ( the major issue in today's MMOs - because they have no real leveling content), but it leaves you time to help out the guildies or the guild as a whole - so be it.

@Bled I think WoW has warped your brain. If you read or ask any of those EXS members that power leveled a game, like Aoc, they hate it and resent doing it. The reasoning why BW/LA are MARKETING "story", because that's what is lacking in MMOs. If doing this is what is setting them apart in the saturated market place - better for us. That's like saying low price means shitty quality. Ever been to Wal-Mart and bought an Apple Ipad or calvin klein jeans? Same concept.

Bioware knows what they are doing in PvP. They have guys that used to work on WAR and other old school MMOs in designing PvP.

I really agree with Acer. Rushing to level up is one thing, releasing a game devoid of an endgame is another. Balanced pvp isn't so easy to find when you're leveling up.

They're digging themselves a grave here imo, most MMO players or rather gamers in general want some form of end game - some higher challenges to overcome, bragging rights for doing so and the rest of it. Challenge = longevity

Rerolling for story arcs would be like going to the same themepark every day for a week and being bored as fuck after 3 days.

I mean really, the Legacy system will surely be similar if not identical to Aion's whole "level 5 characters to 30/50 so you can get a full set of awesome level 30/50 gear!". Fuck off.

I'd prefer people stuck to the class they loved to play, and got really good at playing it, vs. reroll because of nothing to do at level cap.

Oh well. I sculled my haterade.

I am once again not mad to hear about this, i hated how every game puts like no content in the game until lvl cap, it got so far from the past games, and followed the main wow aoc theme, it is a shame in so many games people never see half the stuff the game designers added in.

hakuga wrote:I really agree with Acer. Rushing to level up is one thing, releasing a game devoid of an endgame is another. Balanced pvp isn't so easy to find when you're leveling up.

They're digging themselves a grave here imo, most MMO players or rather gamers in general want some form of end game - some higher challenges to overcome, bragging rights for doing so and the rest of it. Challenge = longevity

Rerolling for story arcs would be like going to the same themepark every day for a week and being bored as fuck after 3 days.

I mean really, the Legacy system will surely be similar if not identical to Aion's whole "level 5 characters to 30/50 so you can get a full set of awesome level 30/50 gear!". Fuck off.

I'd prefer people stuck to the class they loved to play, and got really good at playing it, vs. reroll because of nothing to do at level cap.

Oh well. I sculled my haterade.

That's how I feel. Now if it means the game has incentives for players to re-roll that love doing this in game, awesome, but lets not have a shitty end game for those who aren't those kind of players.

Babaghanush wrote:
@Bled I think WoW has warped your brain. If you read or ask any of those EXS members that power leveled a game, like Aoc, they hate it and resent doing it. The reasoning why BW/LA are MARKETING "story", because that's what is lacking in MMOs. If doing this is what is setting them apart in the saturated market place - better for us. That's like saying low price means shitty quality. Ever been to Wal-Mart and bought an Apple Ipad or calvin klein jeans? Same concept.

Bioware knows what they are doing in PvP. They have guys that used to work on WAR and other old school MMOs in designing PvP.

Well, me Acer and Hakuga can stay warped then.

The idea that story means so much to gamers sets them apart from me completely. Do I think that innovation in the leveling process was necessary, absolutely. People have hated leveling for years, it's nice to see someone address it and work it into a fun more enjoyable experience.

But when it comes to PvP, I don't give a fuck about story nor the leveling process. As Acer said, you can really only balance an MMO around one level, and that's pretty much max level. The curves on classes scale differently, so you can't have an even playing field. I hear this line alot too "real PvP comes from anywhere, high levels or when you're fighting a mob." Yeah, true enough, but I personally don't care about shooting fish in a barrel. I want to jump someone who's my level, and for all reasons, should have a fighting chance. I don't get the thrill of uneven PvP. Congrats on 1-shotting that guy 10 levels lower.

This isn't a generalization so much as it would sound, but I really loathe when people say "just enjoy the game." That's subjective. Maybe progressing a single toon and mastering it is fun to some of us. I'm sorry but I don't play MMOs for storytime.

The biggest issue with the whole thread is that no where in the OP does he says there is no end game. He only asks the 'what if". Bioware has already confirmed that there will be raiding and there will be end game pvp. There will be pve and pvp gear to grind for. Don't get your panties all in a twist here. The point that he is trying to make is, that the leveling experience will also be a reward, on top of end game. This is a great thing, because when I leveled an 80 in wow, I couldn't do it again. I never got another character past 20, it was that boring. Hell the only game I had multiple characters in was AoC, but that was because the world pvp was fun as hell.

SneakyJes wrote:The biggest issue with the whole thread is that no where in the OP does he says there is no end game. He only asks the 'what if". Bioware has already confirmed that there will be raiding and there will be end game pvp. There will be pve and pvp gear to grind for. Don't get your panties all in a twist here. The point that he is trying to make is, that the leveling experience will also be a reward, on top of end game. This is a great thing, because when I leveled an 80 in wow, I couldn't do it again. I never got another character past 20, it was that boring. Hell the only game I had multiple characters in was AoC, but that was because the world pvp was fun as hell.

But bled, as I said last night, Now a days everything is so rushed and only concentrated on endgame, literally just endgame there is so little for gamers now a days in the way of the past. Most games now a days can be summarized simply as, Get quest here and here just so you can hit X lvl only. Back in the day so many games had TONS of endgame content and I meant TONS; whether it was pvp(which it did have, don't know how good it was but most classes were rather balanced) or Endgame, and yes My main example Of Everquest stays. Very expansive world, story; yes it had some downsides of very slow leveling; but it wasn't something everyone was like OMG must get to endgame just to experience the game. Look at the bold part right there... That is just wrong for game mentality, it has never really been that way other than a few mmo's. yeah...but what I would add in there is that swtor is making leveling fun and enjoyable, so even tho it has so much to do, and keeps you immersed, you're still leveling and experiencing a key part of the game imo. And AOC had rather fun character leveling on what Sneaky said.

SneakyJes wrote:The biggest issue with the whole thread is that no where in the OP does he says there is no end game. He only asks the 'what if". Bioware has already confirmed that there will be raiding and there will be end game pvp. There will be pve and pvp gear to grind for. Don't get your panties all in a twist here. The point that he is trying to make is, that the leveling experience will also be a reward, on top of end game. This is a great thing, because when I leveled an 80 in wow, I couldn't do it again. I never got another character past 20, it was that boring. Hell the only game I had multiple characters in was AoC, but that was because the world pvp was fun as hell.

That's pretty much what I am getting too. Pretty much every mmo up to date is all about end content and that is what either makes the game great or shit.

What he is saying in the post is, hey you don't have to get to max lvl to enjoy this game. For the first time in history, lvling will be fun.

what makes leveling fun, then?

for me, it'll never be story. I couldn't care less why I'm off killing 15 wolves, or delivering item A from point B to point C, or escorting NPC D from Point E to Point F.

What would've made leveling in AoC fun that you missed on the way to level cap? World PvP? Is getting killed by some guy who has a natural advantage over you (ex. +5 levels) fun? Plus, you can world PvP at level cap, on even terms. It's not like it was exclusive to the leveling experience.

Finally, if you look at Shubert's quote for what it is, he's basically saying "we want to incentivize people to re-roll and experience more of the story once their main character is done". At least, that's my opinion.

I don't play MMO's to level, and I don't play them for questlines. I thought Tortage was no better than any other series of misc. quests in AoC. I couldn't care less, honestly-- it was just complete the task, get the reward, get closer to level cap, just like any misc quest.

so yeah.. they've said "we'll have that" when it comes to endgame PvE and PvP.

But, in that quote I linked, they're also saying "we're trying hard to get people to want to re-roll when they hit max level."

Do those two statements really sound like they go together for the same game?

Getting people to reroll is just good business. Lets just say that it takes you 3 months to play through an entire class to max level through the story line, and that all 8 classes have an interesting story line that a normal person would have fun paying. Thats a potential 2 years of paid play time from a casual player, who normally might play a game for 3 months and quit. We already know that this game is far more casual driven than other games out there, and this is just another way to get people to stick with SWTOR, rather than go back to wow or any other game. What happens if you suck at pvp so you can't get in a competitive guild or you hate pve so you don't raid? Well instead of quit, level a new character. I know that you may not like it, but you are the minority. Most people will play through mulitple characters.

it's nothing but crying anyway until the game comes out and we know for sure.

I was just shocked to see the "we're trying hard to make you (want to) re-roll." philosophy so openly stated.

Eh, they admit they are trying to be in for the longterm, wow for example about 6 months after a expansion comes out people whine for more instances or get bored and stop playing most of the time.

I had problems voicing things in Exodus in that anything that was considered degrading to the TOR name was offensive. First of all, we all know how silly that is.

What I'm getting from Acer's thread, and I know this has crossed plenty of our minds, even hard core BioWare fans here, that this game might not be the MMO we thought it was going to be. I love BioWare, but I'm not so sold to them that I'm just going to rationalize concerns. This is a legitimate concern. Alot of us like competitive PvP, not an emphasis on "bored of your max level? Enjoy more story!"

I think Sneaky got it. They never said there wasn't an endgame, and trust me I really hope there is. But its going to be different from WoW and AOC where you HAVE to get to max level to enjoy the game. I mean lets b honest you aren't even playing WoW untill max level. That is something I think they wanted to move away from with SWTOR. I hope there is enough endgame PVP/Raiding to keep us somewhat satisfied (it will never be enough, ever!) and the story and ability to play all 8 classes will keep the game fun. Plus you an always /afk ride your companion in the cantina lounge when ur bored.

Slash wrote:I think Sneaky got it. They never said there wasn't an endgame, and trust me I really hope there is. But its going to be different from WoW and AOC where you HAVE to get to max level to enjoy the game. I mean lets b honest you aren't even playing WoW untill max level. That is something I think they wanted to move away from with SWTOR. I hope there is enough endgame PVP/Raiding to keep us somewhat satisfied (it will never be enough, ever!) and the story and ability to play all 8 classes will keep the game fun. Plus you an always /afk ride your companion in the cantina lounge when ur bored.

TL;DR.




But in seriousness - We just have to sit our asses down and let it play out, alot of shit is changing daily for the game so we won't know until closer to release.